And so from from the outside. I see Northern Pass as something that for a long time seems to have been doomed, not by.
And a legal reason, not by any procedural reason, but by the fact that seemingly a large number of people in that state just didn't want it to happen. Laura Knoy: Well, and let's look back just briefly, gentlemen, about why this project failed after almost 10 years. It seems unbelievable to even say that lots of business support, lots of union support, tons of money.
What happens, Sam? Well, so. Sam Evans-Brown: So it very quickly generated a grassroots backlash in the communities that were going to play host to the project. And if you think back to the announcement, I was as you read this the other day. So so this project was announced this spring that I began as a reporter at any sparks surpasses spring of, I think, I could be wrong about that.
I mean, the memory fades. But but Governor Lynch, who who was this sort of you know, he was the type of governor who rarely took positions on controversial items was was at the announcement of this this grand project that was going to, you know, mean development and tax revenue for the city of Franklin.
That was going to host the transit, the terminal where it was the power switched from DC to AC. And there was this grand, grand announcement. And then as soon as the backlash came, he sort of melted into the wallpaper right here. He was never seen supporting the project again. And I think that just that just goes to show you that when it was imagined, it was it thought it was thought to be something that's just going to sail through.
Sam Evans-Brown: But very quickly, especially in the north country, opponents emerged. You know, the Society for the protection of New Hampshire forests marshaled large amounts of money to sort of purchase a blockade of conserved land that required Northern Pass to reconfigure its route.
You know, that became it became clear that there were concerns about whether the White Mountain National Forest was going to approve the project. And Blow Northern Wind essentially had a veto over whether or not it was going to get built. Sam Evans-Brown: And so the route had to be reconfigured again. And so it really just dragged out. And I think the amount of time that that the the opponents were able to buy meant that the project just sort of languished and the opposition was able to grow and grow and cement itself.
It even you know, if you look at the site evaluation committee from the point where the project was proposed to win, it was considered the law governing the site evaluation committee was rewritten in head and span. So so the ground sort of shifted underneath the developers because the project sat for so long.
So it just it just dragged out. Laura Knoy: We asked Eversource to join us today, but given the tornado on Cape Cod, they said they were in emergency mode.
They were unable to be with us. However, just after the Supreme Court's decision late last week. Any campers, any real peak, got ever saw spokesman William Hinkle on the phone.
News clip: Northern Pass was the most advanced project to bring abundant, low cost clean energy into the region. And, you know, that's an unfortunate setback to our efforts to advance affordable, clean energy in the state. And I won't read the whole thing, but there's a couple points in here that I'd like to run by you gentlemen.
As nonprofit electric grid regulator ISO New England warned last year, the region's power system will soon be unable to meet electricity demand and maintain reliability without some degree of emergency actions. And Mr Roach mentions rolling blackouts, controlled outages.
Quoting ISO there, he says that would be devastating not just to residential customers, but employers, health care providers, manufacturers, hotels, banks and all manner of commerce. There is no question, he says, that green options such as wind and solar should be part of our energy mix. And Northern Pass, Roach says, was exactly that. So, Sam, to you first. But, John, jump in. Yes, there was this grassroots opposition. We all remember the rallies and the orange T-shirts. And I go up to the north country a lot and the signs are still there.
But there was considerable support also for this project. Sam Evans-Brown: Specifically from any any large power consumer in New England is is concerned about the the energy prices in the state.
I mean, we do have New England has when you look at retail power costs, we have we have some of the highest in the nation. I mean, we're typically in the northeast behind only Alaska and Hawaii in terms of in terms of energy rates in the United States. And so so anything that will depress those those rates is tends to get support from the business community.
The the question then becomes, you know, how why was it that they weren't able to to get this project through? And when you look at the Supreme Court decision, essentially, what the. Sources say is that is that Northern Pass?
Just did a bad job of presenting its case, so they they said the experts weren't convincing that that the that the record the regulators were unable to determine from the record whether or not there was going to be an adverse impact.
So they didn't even know how to propose mitigation to deal with the impacts. And I think what this goes to show is, is that there's been a paradigm for a long time that utilities have have operated under where they. Sam Evans-Brown: They go behind closed doors. They decide what a project is going to look like.
They announce what the project is going to be. And they they defend it to the hilt. And and that if your model just didn't work this time. And I think I think that that there's a number of reasons why it doesn't work. I think, you know, community members are getting a little savvier in terms of navigating these projects and knowing how to how the levers of bureaucracies work in order to fight against them.
I also think that the, you know, rules have been rewritten to be more inclusive of community support, community input. And so and so that model is is falling by the wayside. And if you look around the country, projects that are getting built are ones that that invite the public in earlier to provide feedback as to what they want to project to look by.
Look, look like before the final, you know, route is announced. And, you know, the lawyers have to defend it in court. Laura Knoy: So we're really seeing a shift, Sam, in how, you know, companies. Present these projects because people feel like they deserve to have a say, they deserve some political power in this process.
Go ahead, John. John Dankosky: No, I also just jump in and say that I think part of the reason the message is muddled is that if a project like Northern Pass was simply meant to solve our energy needs to to drive down costs for businesses in New Hampshire specifically, then that would be a message that maybe more people could get behind, but that a large reason why this was being built was to get power, not to New Hampshire businesses and New Hampshire residents, but to get power to the power hungry folks in the growing greater Boston area of of Massachusetts.
John Dankosky: And the real reason that Massachusetts stepped in and wanted to buy power in this way is because they're trying to deal with the greenhouse gas problem. So it's as though we are trying to solve a lot of problems at once with a project like this, drive down costs, make sure the peak demand is met and also solve for some of our renewable energy needs.
And with all those competing interests in some ways happening at the same time, I don't know. Sam and it feels as though it's hard to message something in exactly the way that's going to get a large constituency behind it. Laura Knoy: Well, and you're raising something really interesting that I want to ask you about, John.
This sort of north south tension, a lot of times Northern Pass opponents said, why should New Hampshire be, you know, the electrical cord for people in Connecticut, in Massachusetts, to crank the air conditioner? So there was that kind of tension about is this power really for us? John Dankosky: Yeah. The states of Massachusetts, Connecticut and Rhode Island over the course of the last few years have put out a number of proposals trying to procure energy from different sources.
And that energy is often going to come from places not sited in those three states. It's more cost efficient, they say, to find a way to get power down from Hydro Quebec, where, as Sam well knows, there's an awful lot of excess power or to buy power from offshore wind farms or new wind farms that are up in the northern parts of New England that have a lot more available wind energy.
And I think that that's something that's that's not going to stop anytime soon. The state where I live has almost no ability to generate renewable energy itself. It's a very congested state. Not a lot of places to put solar arrays, hardly any available wind energy. We're not going to put any turbines in in Long Island Sound.
And so Connecticut's going to be looking elsewhere for its power, which includes how we're going to get power down from Hydro Quebec, how we're going to get natural gas in from Pennsylvania, how we're going to find energy other ways. Laura Knoy: Well, I want to ask both of you what Hydro Quebec does now, because my understanding is it has excess power. But let's go to our listeners as well. Today on The Exchange, we're talking about the defeat of Northern Pass just last week.
What happened and what's next for hydropower in New England? There are ripple effects across the region from this rejection by New Hampshire's state supreme Court. Laura Knoy:. John, let's go to the phones. And Tim is calling from Portsmouth. Hi, Tim. You're on the air. Caller: Oh, good morning, Laura. And thanks for taking my call. So I'm actually called because the last time you discussed the Northern Pass, a little background. I'm I've lived in New Hampshire all my life.
I live in Mount Vernon, although I'm calling from Portsmouth today because I work over here in Portsmouth, because that's where the money is. In any event, I am a certified tree hugger. There are actual photographs of me hugging trees. Caller: Number two, my wife and I spent a tremendous amount of time in the woods of New Hampshire. I am fond of trees and I am fond of the woods in New Hampshire.
Caller: Tim, I am fond of any type of energy that you create not created by burning fossil fuels. So I have to tell you, I just see a massive hypocrisy on the part of every environmentalist I know about Northern Pass because I don't care if the power goes to Connecticut or wherever the power goes.
It's a regional power grid and the power goes wherever it's needed. We're all in this ship together. And right now, we're burning our ship. We're burning our environment. We're burning our planet. And anytime we can avoid a little bit of the burning. That's a good thing in my book and sentiment about it.
Laura Knoy: Send us a picture by email if you hugging a tree because I would love to see Heath to be really fun. And I appreciate. Laura Knoy: His comment on a regional power grid. But what about his criticism, Sam Evans-Brown, about environmental groups and their role in this? And by the way, after a break, we're going to talk to the Conservation Law Foundation.
Sam Evans-Brown: So it'll be interesting to hear from the Conservation Law Foundation, because I think that they in particular are a group that sort of exemplifies how this is a complicated path for them to walk, because CnF opposed this project and came out with some.
Some, I would say, over the top rhetoric in particular about the greenhouse gas emissions of of hydropower reservoirs in Quebec, for instance, that perhaps mischaracterized the science, I'd say early on. Sam Evans-Brown: But now that there's another project in Maine that they like the look of a little better, they're supporting that project. And so I have heard there certainly are folks who are in the environmental movement who don't like don't like large scale hydropower. They don't like the idea of these huge transmission lines connecting us to remote power sources.
Sam Evans-Brown: But there are many who who would say, Blow Northern Wind, listen, I'm okay with connecting to hydrocarbons, especially if they're just using surplus power on existing dams, which Hydro Quebec argues is somewhat the case. But I just didn't like the root of this exact powerline and that there are less impactful routes for a powerline.
So so you get the full spectrum right. You get the folks who hate hydro in any way, shape or form should not support it ever, ever. All right. You get the folks who who think like no matter what the cost, climate change is too serious. I will support this project. Land him, and then you get the qualified. From folks like the Conservation Law Foundation who just say, I didn't like the route of this line. There's a lot more to talk about in just a moment.
Today, The defeat of Northern Pass, what happened and what it means for other hydropower projects in New England. Let's hear from you. And gentlemen, back to our listeners. And here's an email from Kara in New London who says, I'm confused. I did a paper on Northern Pass for a class a couple of years ago at the time. I believe it was the U. Department of Energy that had charts and data you could pull on energy use in every state.
I thought we exported energy to other states already. So how could bringing more power in possibly lower costs? That doesn't seem like the excuse holds water. And Kara, thank you so much for the e-mail and Sam and John, Sam, you first. This is an important point because our earlier caller, Tim, was right. We are operating under a regional power grid here in New England.
But I don't know if people really understand what that means. Sam Evans-Brown: So the way the way that the the markets are set up, it's sort of delegated down from the federal level. And in each market is is established in in a regional context. And in New England, ISO, New England is the one is the organization, the independent system operator of New England is the organization that operates the markets and that includes all of the New England states.
So so the idea that New Hampshire generates more electricity than it uses Blow Northern Wind really matter because it's selling into this New England market and it's like putting water into a bathtub. Yeah, exactly. And so so the fact that that New Hampshire generates more than it uses really, really has very minimal effect on on the power prices in New Hampshire itself, because those prices are created regionally in this regional market.
Laura Knoy: So why is that point so often made? You know, we were talking with John earlier about how people said why should we approve Northern Pass? It's just an electric cord going down to Massachusetts in Connecticut. Why is this state by state argument made when the power is produced regionally? Sam Evans-Brown: Really it Just scores rhetorical points.
I mean, it doesn't it? But it sounds good. And also, it it there is a certain truth that there are there are regions that have more demand and there are reasons that have there states that have more supply that is not in of itself untrue.
It's it's just sort of beside the point. So the question is, OK, so given the market realities that prices are formed at this regional level, the question is then what do you do with that information? And it really comes down to if you want to drive down costs, you have to bring in more supply.
And that is what that is what a project like Northern Pass would do now. Now it is just a single project. It was it was one gigawatt in a system that uses at its peak 28 gigawatts.
So the idea that it would have a massive effect on power prices by bringing in, you know, 1 gigawatt of marginally lower lower price supply is you know, is is not quite true. It would have it would have a small effect on regional power prices. So so the the the the writer is writer inner is in fact, both sort of right and wrong. That that, you know, it wouldn't have a huge effect, but it would have some effect.
Laura Knoy: Well, and John, so we talked about this a little bit before the break. What does Hydro Quebec do now with the excess power that it says it still has? John Dankosky: Well, one of the things that they're going to try to do, at least to get it to Massachusetts is send it down through Maine.
Central Maine Power has had a project going. And it would run about miles down from the border with Canada down to Lewiston, Lewiston, where would hook up with the rest of the energy grid. And it's going to go through much like it would have in New Hampshire, an environmentally sensitive wooded area.
I think it's it's fair to say a few things. This project from the outset was going to be a less less costly endeavor than Northern Pass. John Dankosky: It also had more of the necessary permitting in place already by the time Massachusetts decided to move from Northern Pass over to this main project to get its power.
So it had those things going forward. As you said before, some environmentalists at least have lined up behind this project, saying that this is actually a good solution as opposed to CLF and others ending up on the other side of the ledger for four Northern Pass. So right now, the CMP project is is moving forward and it's starting to Laura, I think, encounters some of the same types of pushback. What's happening in New Hampshire? But it's just not coming from, let's just say, as many official sources as you had all lining up against against the project in your state.
And so, you know, another piece of this, which is I think not unimportant, is Blow Northern Wind central Maine Power is a local power company for the state of Maine. Eversource is is a big multi-state utility which serves customers in. In my state, in Connecticut and in Massachusetts. In New Hampshire, it has a whole lot of political connections. And I think it's fair to Blow Northern Wind that some people were skeptical of the political connections that it had with the state house in in New Hampshire and the statehouse in Boston.
And how wired up Eversource was to try to get their project through central Maine Power is it is a main concern. And so they're trying to at least put forward the notion that this is a project that will benefit Maine and Mainers along the way and not just be that extension cord that gets the power down to Boston.
Sam Evans-Brown: They're still damming rivers up in Quebec currently as we speak. The Romaine River, which is, you know, a good 13 hour drive north of north east of Montreal, is is in process of being dammed. They're putting up four new power stations on that river. Three are completed. One is underway. So, though, and in addition to those those new dams that are going up, they already have a surplus there.
Sam Evans-Brown: Well, this is if you if you look at the history of hydrocarbons. It is it a you know, it's it's owned by the province. The province of Quebec has percent of the share of the company. And it was created explicitly to generate surplus power to sell to at. Out of, you know, other regions. New York City was has always been a big a big customer for them and New England as well. And so that's a very explicit strategy. They're actually trying to double their revenue over the next 15 years and very explicitly in their plan.
It says exports is a big way of how we're going to do this. So they they envision building this powerline and probably another two. So there's another line being built down right now that is going underwater. This is a buried line going to New York City.
It's called the Champlain Hudson Express. They're building that. In theory, if it gets through regulators in Maine, they'll build the line through Maine. But but they the it's a little hard to know because the because hydrophobic is a bit of a black box.
We don't really have we don't know what the reservoir levels are. We don't know how many gallons of water behind the dam, because that's sort of market sensitive information. Sam Evans-Brown: But they have said that they have enough surplus to power three transmission lines. So there's there there could be another powerline that gets built to New Englander, to New York in order to satisfy this long term plan of hydro back, of doubling their revenue by selling surplus to the, you know, the expensive power markets of the Northeast.
Laura Knoy: Well, there's a lot more about Hydro Quebec, how it works, the history in Sam's excellent award winning series called Powerline. We've got a link on our Web site, if you haven't heard it.
And HP Jorge's slash exchange. Gentlemen, I want to bring another voice into our conversation now. And Melissa, welcome. Thank you for being with us. Melissa Birchard: Honestly hydropower has a big future in the region.
It's already played a significant role in the region and will continue to play a significant role in the region, as you guys have discussed already on the show. The region have a shared power grid and New Hampshire relies on that shared power grid. In terms of what projects can be developed in New Hampshire, transmission developing companies need to take a close look at their approach to bringing forward projects. And I think Sam Evans- Brown got it right when he talked earlier about the fact that project developers are starting to learn the lesson that you don't come into a community, you don't come into New Hampshire and wave your hands around and make loud noises like The Wizard of Oz, because if you do that, we're going to we're going to pull back that screen and we're going to see that behind the handwaving is a poorly considered project that's just not honest about it.
Ichot a burde in bowre bright That sully semly is on sight Menskful maiden of might Fair and fre to fonde In all this wurhliche won A burde of blod and of bon Never yet I nuste non Lussomore in lode Blow, northerne wind Send thou me my sweting Blow, northerne wind Blow, blow, blow! Hire lure lumes light Ase a launterne anight Hire be blikieth so bright So fair he is and fine Swetly swire he hath to holde With armes, shuldre ase mon wolde And fingres faire for to folde God wolde she were mine Blow, northerne wind Send thou me my sweting Blow, northerne wind Blow, blow, blow!
To Love I putte pleintes mo How Siking me hath siwed so And eke Thoght me thrat to slo With maistry yef he mighte And Sorewe sore in balful bende The he wolde for this hende Me lede to my lives ende Unlahfulliche in lighte Blow, northerne wind Send thou me my sweting Blow, northerne wind Blow, blow, blow! You will get 3 free months if you haven't already used an Apple Music free trial. Type song title, artist or lyrics. Top lyrics Community Contribute Business. Sign in Sign up.
Written by: The Mediaeval Baebes. No translations available. These lyrics are waiting for review. Edit lyrics.
The ascension - New York Against The Belzebu / Empty Grave / Pure Noise - 3 Way Grindcorenoise (CD), Weave - Zebradonkey* - Z! Eb Rad On Key (CD, Album), Oh My Love - John Lennon - Imagine (CD, Album), In My Youth - Noiseworks - In My Youth (Vinyl), Dont Leave Me This Way - Various - Midnight 20 Soft Soul Hits (Vinyl, LP), Keith Stewart - Take Me Back To Jamaica (Vinyl, LP, Album), Wanting - Moev - Yeah Whatever (CD, Album), There Is A Place - Tanya Tucker - You Are So Beautiful (Vinyl, LP)